Why is War?

[Sydney Grew]

"Whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, do ye even so unto them."

It is a crime to start a war.

AND it is just as much a crime to participate in a war. Three cheers for jolly old Tippett!

[vinteuil]

... it is just as much a crime to participate in a war.

... ah well, the Grewsome one hath spoke.

End of.

All the debate since St Thomas Aquinas worried about the concept of a "just war" in the 13th century finds its perfect solution in a few crisp words from the Antipodes.

Would that all the great issues of life could be so easily resolved!

Come now, Sidders, attaboy - turn the great Grew brain to solve other distresses - you've done war - what about poverty, disease, and those who like Elgar and RVW???

[Pabmusic]

...what about poverty, disease, and those who like Elgar and RVW???

I like Elgar and RVW… Are you trying to start a war, or something?

[cloughie]

Bob Dylan wrote this about 50 years ago - seems little has been learned since!

WITH GOD ON OUR SIDE

MY NAME IT IS NOTHING, MY AGE IT MEANS LESS
THE COUNTRY I COME FROM IS A PART OF THE FREE WEST
I WAS TAUGHT AND BROUGHT UP THERE ITS LAWS TO ABIDE
AND THAT THE LAND THAT I LIVE IN HAS GOD ON ITS SIDE

OH, THE HISTORY BOOKS TELL IT, THEY TELL IT SO WELL
THE CAVALRIES CHARGED, THE INDIANS FELL
THE CAVALRIES CHARGED, THE INDIANS DIED
FOR THE COUNTRY WAS YOUNG WITH GOD ON ITS SIDE

OH, THE FIRST WORLD WAR, IT CAME AND IT WENT
THE REASON FOR FIGHTING I NEVER COULD GET
BUT I LEARNED TO ACCEPT IT, ACCEPT IT WITH PRIDE
FOR YOU DON'T COUNT THE DEAD WHEN GOD'S ON YOUR SIDE

AND THEN THE SECOND WORLD WAR, IT CAME TO AN END
WE FORGAVE THE GERMANS AND NOW WE ARE FRIENDS
THOUGH THEY MURDERED SIX MILLION, IN THE OVENS THEY FRIED
THE GERMANS NOW, TOO, HAVE GOD ON THEIR SIDE

BUT NOW WE HAVE WEAPONS OF CHEMICAL DUST
AND IF FIRE THEM WE'RE FORCED TO, WHY THEN FIRE THEM WE MUST
ONE PUSH OF THE BUTTON AND A SHOT THE WORLDWIDE
AND YOU NEVER ASK QUESTIONS WHEN GOD'S ON YOUR SIDE

'THO MANY A LONG HOUR I'VE THOUGHT ON THIS
THAT JESUS CHRIST WAS BETRAYED BY A KISS
BUT I CAN'T THINK FOR YOU, YOU WILL HAVE TO DECIDE
WHETHER JUDAS ISCARIOT HAD GOD ON HIS SIDE

AND NOW AS I LEAVE YOU, I'M WEARY AS HELL
THE CONFUSION I'M FEELIN', THERE AIN'T NO TONGUE CAN TELL
THE WORDS FILL MY HEAD AND DROP TO THE FLOOR
THAT IF GOD'S ON OUR SIDE, HE'LL STOP THE NEXT WAR

[Pabmusic]

Bob Dylan wrote this about 50 years ago - seems little has been learned since!

WITH GOD ON OUR SIDE...

Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, Cloughie!

You can find Dylan and also Joan Baez singing this on Youtube.

[vinteuil]

Bob Dylan wrote this about 50 years ago - seems little has been learned since!

WITH GOD ON OUR SIDE

... nope, sorry cloughie, doesn't do it for me. The response that war is a Bad Thing is just too easy. Yes, it makes us feel good, that WE wdn't do anything so unpleasant or silly. But in most cases wars are not engaged in frivolously; they are responses to bloody awful and complicated situations. I don't think the military or even politicians go into these things without a heavy heart. My father was a pacifist in WW2, working for the Friends' Ambulance Unit* instead; other family members served in the RN, the RAF, and military intelligence. I am glad that the Allies were able to defeat the Axis powers, but there is no joy in saying that.


* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friends'_Ambulance_Unit




.

[Richard Tarleton]

Anthopologist Jared Diamond, in his most recent book "The World Until Yesterday", reminds us that war has always been with us, since Stone Age times. He analyses a recent stone age war in his area of study, New Guinea, and follows it with a fascinating chapter comparing wars then and now, and draws some fascinationg comparisons and contrasts. One is the concept of self-sacrifice, a feature of modern warfare where soldiers are ordered to do things (or do them voluntarily) which are certain to get them killed. In traditional stone age warfare in New Guinea, every warrior's aim is to kill the enemy and stay alive himself.

[gurnemanz]

... nope, sorry cloughie, doesn't do it for me. The response that war is a Bad Thing is just too easy. Yes, it makes us feel good, that WE wdn't do anything so unpleasant or silly. But in most cases wars are not engaged in frivolously; they are responses to bloody awful and complicated situations. I don't think the military or even politicians go into these things without a heavy heart. My father was a pacifist in WW2, working for the Friends' Ambulance Unit* instead; other family members served in the RN, the RAF, and military intelligence. I am glad that the Allies were able to defeat the Axis powers, but there is no joy in saying that.

..and it did not take long for Dylan to forsake his protest phase. In the second verse of "My Back Pages" he sings:

Half-cracked prejudice leaped forth
"Rip down all hate," I screamed
Lies that life is black and white
Spoke from my skull, I dreamed ..

... followed by the famous paradoxical chorus line "Ah but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now."

Later in the song comes his realisation that "I'd become my enemy in the instant that I preach.’

[Sir Velo]

... nope, sorry cloughie, doesn't do it for me. The response that war is a Bad Thing is just too easy. Yes, it makes us feel good, that WE wdn't do anything so unpleasant or silly. But in most cases wars are not engaged in frivolously; they are responses to bloody awful and complicated situations.

Sorry Vints that's just too easy. So simple to sit behind the controls of a B-52 and drop a load, obliterating thousands at a stroke. Sure, the consequences of disobedience would be severe for the airman/squaddie/jack tar who refuses to obey orders. Very, very easy to salve our consciences by the old lie, "I was only following orders, guv." Sometimes we have to have the courage to stand up to the warmongerers. Takes a lot more bottle, sometimes, to refuse to kill a man. Having said that, I have more respect for those who see the whites of the eyes of those they kill in one-on-one armed combat than those who do it from behind the sights of a missile launcher or cockpit, or tank console. They at least see the consequences of their actions and are "man" enough to face that, and take responsibility for it.

[vinteuil]

Sorry Vints that's just too easy. .

... what is "too easy"? - I'm not saying this is easy at all - far from it.

What I find "too easy" is those who can easily say "War = Bad", - whereas no-one is really saying "War = Good".

Most decisions to go to war are not really brought on by, to use your word, - "warmongerers". What would such a word mean?

What politicians, diplomats, the military have to deal with is a world that sometimes exceptionally unpleasant and dangerous, where "bad" choices have to be made to prevent "worse" outcomes.

And for me the Dylan / Baez anti-war rhetoric is, well, far "too easy". I am more interested in the painful reality than the "easy" rhetoric of "let's not do nasty things and all will be well... "

[aeolium]

What politicians, diplomats, the military have to deal with is a world that sometimes exceptionally unpleasant and dangerous, where "bad" choices have to be made to prevent "worse" outcomes.

Though it's not easy to think of many wars in the last century (and the beginning of this), other than the 2nd world war, in which the decision to take military action has resulted in a better outcome than might have been achieved by not taking military action - and even the circumstances that led to WW2 were created directly by the results of WW1. Perhaps a case can be made for intervention in the Bosnian conflict, and in Sierra Leone, but that leaves a whole host of wars that almost certainly made things worse. Given this, surely diplomats and politicians should make a much bigger effort to avoid military action rather than - as it seems these days - almost thinking of it as one of the natural options.

[vinteuil]

Though it's not easy to think of many wars in the last century (and the beginning of this), other than the 2nd world war, in which the decision to take military action has resulted in a better outcome than might have been achieved by not taking military action - and even the circumstances that led to WW2 were created directly by the results of WW1. Perhaps a case can be made for intervention in the Bosnian conflict, and in Sierra Leone, but that leaves a whole host of wars that almost certainly made things worse. Given this, surely diplomats and politicians should make a much bigger effort to avoid military action rather than - as it seems these days - almost thinking of it as one of the natural options.

... I agree with all of this.

[Mary Chambers]

... I agree with all of this.

I certainly agree with the last sentence. I am constantly amazed by the way war is talked about as if it's a normal way to behave. For some, sadly, it is.

[Richard Tarleton]

I certainly agree with the last sentence. I am constantly amazed by the way war is talked about as if it's a normal way to behave. For some, sadly, it is.

I think the anthropologist's view I refer to above is that, indeed, it is. Even if some tribes/communities/states want to live peaceably, there will always be others who covet their resources or land, or wish to impose their religious or cultural values on them. It has been ever thus. It is just that in historical times the means for waging war have resulted in ever more disastrous or potentially disastrous conflicts. But it's part of the human condition. There will never be world peace. Population increase, pressure on resources and the consequences of climate change (resulting in wholesale movements of population) mean that war will continue to be the normal way to behave. Peace is the preferred option of those those who currently benefit from the status quo.

[Mary Chambers]

There will never be world peace. .

I fear you are right, though it took me a long time to accept that. I was idealistic about it until quite recently.