The Holy Trinity

[Pabmusic]

Another fascinating post, Pabs. I'm proud just to hold your coat in this debate but could I just add to your first para, "for a miniscule small period of time"? This time thing still bothers me, along with the size of the universe as discussed in your last post, and my first...

Abso-bloomimg-lootly loverly!

Homo sapiens (us - the species most would consider human) is little more that 180,000 years old. Even if you include all species that taxonomists call 'homo' it takes us back only about 1.5-2 million years. We split from the common ancestor with chimpanzees and banobos about 6 million years ago, but our ancestors then were more like upright apes (at least, I'd think we'd call them that) - and that includes Lucy.

The universe is 13.72 billion years old. Note the two decimal places!

[ardcarp]

I’d be very surprised indeed if there’s no other intelligent life in the universe.

So would I, Pabs. But if there is, I'll bet it doesn't rate 'intelligence' as the ability to get a double first at [the intergalactic equivalent of] Cambridge or to become [ditto] an actuary. It may well be that a slime which has the cognitive ability to outwit all other slimes and hence dominate the whole planet (and thus become known as slimekind) has a pretty high IQ.

'Intelligence' could be seen as the ability to solve problems, but the snag is it tends to be defined by a superior or dominant class as 'possessing the same attributes as we do'. Hence the 11+. The educationalist Fred Schonell, when asked, "What is IQ ?", replied, "It's what my tests measure".

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Another fascinating post, Pabs. I'm proud just to hold your coat in this debate

- #104 summed up evolutionary ideas on emotions with admirable succinctness and relevance. When we discuss Evolution, we have to deal with minute changes that incrementally add up over spans of time that challenge imagination. Just as "an eye" didn't suddenly appear fully formed in animals, so the complex range of human emotions gradually (incredibly gradually) developed from those necessary purely for the survival of the early hominids to those that modern humans experience.

[aeolium]

Pabmusic, msg 104 - a magnificent post. I think such gems ought to be preserved for future perusal in the Reference Library.

[french frank]

Pabmusic, msg 104 - a magnificent post. I think such gems ought to be preserved for future perusal in the Reference Library.

It has been copied to the Reference Library as Pabmusic on evolution , and closed - for reference only

[Richard Tarleton]

Pabmusic, msg 104 - a magnificent post. I think such gems ought to be preserved for future perusal in the Reference Library.

I've just completed the task of copying and pasting all Pabs' posts on this thread into a Word document, along with the corresponding parts of the debate from Magnificat, because I think I shall be returning to them again and again.

[aeolium]

It has been copied to the Reference Library as Pabmusic on evolution , and closed - for reference only

Thanks, ff.

[french frank]

Thanks, ff.

I can also copy the whole thread when (if) it (ever) peters out. It's taken us three years to have the first debate on The Existence of God - one of the more regular discussions on the old BBC messageboard.

[Bryn]

This morning's "Sunday" on Radio 4 might be of interest. An item on the recent report on the possible detection of gravitational waves originating in the first femtosecond or so of the Big Bang begins 31'15" in. At 32' 46" a slight departure from the "Sunday" norm occurs.

[ardcarp]

When we discuss Evolution, we have to deal with minute changes that incrementally add up over spans of time that challenge imagination.

...though studies off the Pepper Moth and its rapid changes due to the smoke of the Industrial Revolution rather suggest that Evolution, via natural selection, can get its skates on when need be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

...though studies off the Pepper Moth and its rapid changes due to the smoke of the Industrial Revolution rather suggest that Evolution, via natural selection, can get its skates on when need be.

Yes: anyone who's been watching Ben Garrod's series The Secrets of Bones on BBC4 will have heard last week of the remarkable changes in the human jaw over the past three hundred years - resulting from our changing diet. Evolution can be a remarkably rapid process when spurred by the requisite environmental stimulae!

[french frank]

A few quotes:

Stephen Hawking: "I believe the universe is governed by the laws of science. The laws may have been decreed by God, but God does not intervene to break the laws."

The evolutionary biologist JBS Haldane: I have a suspicion that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose but queerer than we can suppose.

Another quote I remember but can't attribute (possibly Hawking) was to the effect that science is increasingly able to explain How but not Why.

A cartoon I once saw. Picture a celestial throne set on clouds, an angel on each side blowing a trumpet, on the throne a goldfish bowl with a goldfish swimming around. Caption: "It's just not what I expected."

Spinoza, Einstein, Hawking all speak of God and it seems clear what that doesn't mean, but not so easily comprehensible what it does mean.

[ardcarp]

...all possibly to do with what I suggested upthread:

Probably our understanding of creation (whether of the universe, life and everything) is limited by human intelligence.

Maybe the 'Why' is a frail human questing for the unknowable?

[Bryn]

A few quotes:

Stephen Hawking: "I believe the universe is governed by the laws of science. The laws may have been decreed by God, but God does not intervene to break the laws."

Another Hawking quote, which elaborates on his thinking:

"If you believe in science, like I do, you believe that there are certain laws that are always obeyed. If you like, you can say the laws are the work of God, but that is more a definition of God than a proof of his existence."

I have no idea whether the item below is genuine or fake, though I think it more likely to be the latter:

[Serial_Apologist]

I've just completed the task of copying and pasting all Pabs' posts on this thread into a Word document, along with the corresponding parts of the debate from Magnificat, because I think I shall be returning to them again and again.

Indeed. Thank heavens (ahem) Pabs survived that typhoon. Evolution had something to do with that, no doubt.