The Vatican And Its Left-Wing Critics

[gurnemanz]

"Chi non prega per le Signore chiede il diavolo. Quando non annunciare Gesù Cristo, proclamiamo la mondanità del diavolo, la mondanità del demonio."

It struck me that "prega per" didn't make sense, meaning "pray for" not "pray to". I have checked the homily on the Vatican site, and it seems that in the first part he is actually recalling a quote from Léon Bloy (this is not made clear in the English quotes which have been published):

Quando non si confessa Gesù Cristo, mi sovviene la frase di : “Chi non prega il Signore, prega il diavolo”. Quando non si confessa Gesù Cristo, si confessa la mondanità del diavolo, la mondanità del demonio.

"Chi" means anyone, which includes me. Since I don't pray to the Lord, I am presumably being accused of praying to the Devil. I agree with Julien: "I find the idea that the Devil is sitting there waiting to pounce, the notion of Original Sin, the idea of Damnation barbaric."

[vinteuil]

a quote from Léon Bloy

"

Léon Bloy « Celui qui ne prie pas le Seigneur, prie le diable »

If the Pope is an enthusiast for Bloy, we are in for a fervid time!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Léon_Bloy

fuller info, but in French :

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Léon_Bloy

[Pabmusic]

...Since I don't pray to the Lord, I am presumably being accused of praying to the Devil. I agree with Julien: "I find the idea that the Devil is sitting there waiting to pounce, the notion of Original Sin, the idea of Damnation barbaric."

Seconded (well, thirded I suppose).

[amateur51]

Seconded (well, thirded I suppose).

Likewise. The very idea struck me as simply wrong when I was about four which might have been expected to have been liberating but it was just the opposite because I found that I had to question every assertion made to me by adults, very confusing for a rather long time.

[scottycelt]

Likewise. The very idea struck me as simply wrong when I was about four which might have been expected to have been liberating but it was just the opposite because I found that I had to question every assertion made to me by adults, very confusing for a rather long time.

That explains a lot ...

However one accurately translates the homily from Pope Francis it very much echoes the words of Christ himself who said : 'He who is not with Me is against Me ..... '

A priest's homily at Mass is generally a comment on a passage from the Gospel which immediately precedes it and that could well have been the case in this instance.

Any priest giving a sermon (and particularly a Jesuit) is unlikely to embark on one without some words or event from the Gospels on which to expand.

[LeMartinPecheur]

However one accurately translates the homily from Pope Francis it very much echoes the words of Christ himself who said : 'He who is not with Me is against Me ..... '

Thus Matthew and Luke, but cf. Mark 9:40 "...whoever is not against us is for us."

I trust that makes all entirely clear

[amateur51]

Thus Matthew and Luke, but cf. Mark 9:40 "...whoever is not against us is for us."

I trust that makes all entirely clear

Doobeedoobeedoo - Sinatra

[scottycelt]

Doobeedoobeedoo - Sinatra

Ahhhhh, I see ... I think I've finally got it ... Pope Francis not only quoted from but named himself after Francis Sinatra, and not Assisi or Xavier as widely believed ... ?

[jean]

"Chi non prega per le Signore..."

Are you sure that is what he said?

Who are the women he's supposed to be talking about?

(Other sources give his words as Chi non prega il Signore prega il diavolo... which makes much better sense.)

[gurnemanz]

Are you sure that is what he said?

Who are the women he's supposed to be talking about?

(Other sources give his words as Chi non prega il Signore prega il diavolo... which makes much better sense.)

I commented on this further up.

[MrGongGong]

[QUOTE=scottycelt;273732] the words of Christ himself who said : 'He who is not with Me is against Me ..... '

Would that also apply to Dolly Parton ?

I'm not "with" her but i'm definitely NOT against her

This does explain a few things ......... such as how simple minded folk seem to think that if one is not "for" something then one has to be "against" it , which is most bizarre...... so much for tolerance then

[Pabmusic]

...This does explain a few things ......... such as how simple minded folk seem to think that if one is not "for" something then one has to be "against" it , which is most bizarre...... so much for tolerance then

You're quite right. It is a logical fallacy, known as a false dichotomy, that assumes there are only two possibilities when there are in fact many. It's a common rhetorical device that says, in effect, "I define the options, you can choose only from my definitions". Dubya used it when he said "you're either with us or against us", implying that those who didn't agree supported terrorism.

The truth is that there are usually several options, not just the two the speaker directs you to. That is what makes it a fallacy.

[Vile Consort]

The dreadful Melanie Phillips uses it all the time. It's impossible to take her opinions seriously when they are underpinned by such shaky logical foundations.

[scottycelt]

Would that also apply to Dolly Parton ?

I'm not "with" her but i'm definitely NOT against her

This does explain a few things ......... such as how simple minded folk seem to think that if one is not "for" something then one has to be "against" it , which is most bizarre...... so much for tolerance then

I'm most definitely "for" Dolly Parton, Mr GG!

Christ's command was a plea for acceptance and faithfulness on the part of his followers, Sir Alex Ferguson would expect no less from his players. If Ryan Giggs appeared on television and expressed some doubts about the manager's team selection or tactics Sir Alex might be entitled to feel that, to all intent and purposes, the normally passive Mr Giggs had suddenly "lost the faith". Simple indeed. Christianity has never claimed to be a democratic club like the Berlin Philharmonic.

However, such simplicity should never be confused with 'simple-mindedness', Mr GG ...

[ahinton]

I'm most definitely "for" Dolly Parton

In both senses?...

Christianity has never claimed to be a democratic club like the Berlin Philharmonic.

Maybe, maybe not, but certain branches of it might appear rather more in tune with the Vienna Philharmonic in the light of its treatment of and attitudes towards women members.